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	<title>Comments on: Money and Church</title>
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	<description>The personal opinions of a New Christian pastor entrepreneur geek punk.</description>
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		<title>By: Mac</title>
		<link>http://macfrazier.com/2009/09/money-and-church/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Mac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://macfrazier.com/?p=444#comment-166</guid>
		<description>Right on, Caira! And I, too, think 2% sounds like a reasonable number to start the discussion with. I had not heard, Chuck, of the 7% of income tax number. That sounds confusing to me. Especially given that people with greater means will often adjust their charitable giving specifically in order to reduce their tax burden. But overall that doesn&#039;t sound like a bad place to start the conversation either.

Either way, we need to be talking more openly about this across the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on, Caira! And I, too, think 2% sounds like a reasonable number to start the discussion with. I had not heard, Chuck, of the 7% of income tax number. That sounds confusing to me. Especially given that people with greater means will often adjust their charitable giving specifically in order to reduce their tax burden. But overall that doesn&#8217;t sound like a bad place to start the conversation either.</p>
<p>Either way, we need to be talking more openly about this across the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Ebert</title>
		<link>http://macfrazier.com/2009/09/money-and-church/comment-page-1/#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://macfrazier.com/?p=444#comment-164</guid>
		<description>Caira,

It is a great idea to have a goal.  I like the 2%.  We are encouraging that in the Boulder NC.  A slightly more complex form (to account for ability to pay) is to use a non linear goal.  For example 7% of you income taxes.  That might average out at 2%, but suggests a higher goal for people of greater means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caira,</p>
<p>It is a great idea to have a goal.  I like the 2%.  We are encouraging that in the Boulder NC.  A slightly more complex form (to account for ability to pay) is to use a non linear goal.  For example 7% of you income taxes.  That might average out at 2%, but suggests a higher goal for people of greater means.</p>
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		<title>By: Caira</title>
		<link>http://macfrazier.com/2009/09/money-and-church/comment-page-1/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>Caira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://macfrazier.com/?p=444#comment-140</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Mac.

I think it would be very interesting for our church to discuss tithing - but I do not think that the magic number of 10% is necessary.  Historically churches took care of the sick and the poor, and now we&#039;re paying well over 10% to social security, medicare, etc.  The church doesn&#039;t have the same financial obligations that it used to.  However, I&#039;d be very curious to see someone calculate a number: what percent would every member have to give in order to support our church well enough?  2%?  Putting out a number might let the &#039;littler guys&#039; feel like they&#039;re doing their fair share.

It also supports the idea of &#039;on-going support.&#039;  This is not a one-time contribution that is necessary.  It might also encourage to consider donating to the church as part of their basic household budgets.  Don&#039;t just give what&#039;s leftover after having bought the biggest house you could afford, or the newest car you could afford.  There&#039;s rarely anything leftover at the end of the month, unless you pull money out of your budget for the things that are important to you.  Like &quot;pay yourself first&quot; for retirement savings, we could create a habit of giving to the church 2% (or whatever) first.

Our church needs to come to terms with the need to ask for money.  Any industry knows that they need to keep advertising or their sales will slump.  My children feel comfortable reminding me to feed them.  The church knows we need to be reminded weekly to &quot;cease to do evil, and learn to do good.&quot;  We also need to be reminded of the church&#039;s financial needs and what we can do to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Mac.</p>
<p>I think it would be very interesting for our church to discuss tithing &#8211; but I do not think that the magic number of 10% is necessary.  Historically churches took care of the sick and the poor, and now we&#8217;re paying well over 10% to social security, medicare, etc.  The church doesn&#8217;t have the same financial obligations that it used to.  However, I&#8217;d be very curious to see someone calculate a number: what percent would every member have to give in order to support our church well enough?  2%?  Putting out a number might let the &#8216;littler guys&#8217; feel like they&#8217;re doing their fair share.</p>
<p>It also supports the idea of &#8216;on-going support.&#8217;  This is not a one-time contribution that is necessary.  It might also encourage to consider donating to the church as part of their basic household budgets.  Don&#8217;t just give what&#8217;s leftover after having bought the biggest house you could afford, or the newest car you could afford.  There&#8217;s rarely anything leftover at the end of the month, unless you pull money out of your budget for the things that are important to you.  Like &#8220;pay yourself first&#8221; for retirement savings, we could create a habit of giving to the church 2% (or whatever) first.</p>
<p>Our church needs to come to terms with the need to ask for money.  Any industry knows that they need to keep advertising or their sales will slump.  My children feel comfortable reminding me to feed them.  The church knows we need to be reminded weekly to &#8220;cease to do evil, and learn to do good.&#8221;  We also need to be reminded of the church&#8217;s financial needs and what we can do to help.</p>
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		<title>By: Mac</title>
		<link>http://macfrazier.com/2009/09/money-and-church/comment-page-1/#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>Mac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://macfrazier.com/?p=444#comment-139</guid>
		<description>Great points, Brandy. I think my particular denomination started out with the idea that church was too much about money, and gotten itself into the opposite position. Until recently, they rarely asked for anything, and always did it in a sort of sheepish manner. No vacation funds, retirement funds, or whatever. 

I do think in part the problem is we think church needs to be expensive. Most businesses lease, but for some reason churches need to own real estate and maintain their own buildings. Do away with the real estate, and churches become far easier to maintain solely through member contributions without outside support AND without being a big burden on anyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points, Brandy. I think my particular denomination started out with the idea that church was too much about money, and gotten itself into the opposite position. Until recently, they rarely asked for anything, and always did it in a sort of sheepish manner. No vacation funds, retirement funds, or whatever. </p>
<p>I do think in part the problem is we think church needs to be expensive. Most businesses lease, but for some reason churches need to own real estate and maintain their own buildings. Do away with the real estate, and churches become far easier to maintain solely through member contributions without outside support AND without being a big burden on anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandy</title>
		<link>http://macfrazier.com/2009/09/money-and-church/comment-page-1/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://macfrazier.com/?p=444#comment-138</guid>
		<description>It seems like every church has a building fund, vacation fund, retirement funds and even funds to fund the other funds important to the future evolution of the Church. It doesn&#039;t make much sense, to put a financial burden on the followers who can&#039;t afford to give to the church.

It&#039;s like squeezing an orange that has already been squeezed 50 times. You&#039;re going to get very little juice, out of this orange. You can&#039;t keep asking for money, from people that don&#039;t have it.

I&#039;m not just talking about your Christian Church, I&#039;m talking about large and small religious organizations all over the world. I&#039;m talking about people who are always asking for money, to fulfill their life dreams or missionary work.

When I say, that you need to be careful when giving money to your church, I&#039;m also talking about, using caution, looking for red flags and anything else, while giving money away to any religious organization or anyone who has a personal goal that they believe God wants them to fulfill. Some of these people can be rather obnoxious.

If you&#039;re interested in stopping world hunger, I suggest that you support a group that is working diligently and not wasting their money, in a confident effort to stop or at least slow down the effects of world hunger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like every church has a building fund, vacation fund, retirement funds and even funds to fund the other funds important to the future evolution of the Church. It doesn&#8217;t make much sense, to put a financial burden on the followers who can&#8217;t afford to give to the church.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like squeezing an orange that has already been squeezed 50 times. You&#8217;re going to get very little juice, out of this orange. You can&#8217;t keep asking for money, from people that don&#8217;t have it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not just talking about your Christian Church, I&#8217;m talking about large and small religious organizations all over the world. I&#8217;m talking about people who are always asking for money, to fulfill their life dreams or missionary work.</p>
<p>When I say, that you need to be careful when giving money to your church, I&#8217;m also talking about, using caution, looking for red flags and anything else, while giving money away to any religious organization or anyone who has a personal goal that they believe God wants them to fulfill. Some of these people can be rather obnoxious.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested in stopping world hunger, I suggest that you support a group that is working diligently and not wasting their money, in a confident effort to stop or at least slow down the effects of world hunger.</p>
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